Brent – 00:00:01:
Welcome to Freight Nation: A Trucking Podcast where we explore the fascinating world of trucking and freight management. We dive deep into the freight industry and uncover why the trucking industry is more crucial to our country now than ever before. Stay tuned to uncover the driving forces behind successful trucking businesses and hear from the hardworking truckers and leaders who keep the world moving. Let’s hit the road. All right, Freight Nation, welcome back. This is going to be a unique episode of Freight Nation today. I appreciate you tuning in today. I know you’ve got a lot of places you can spend and invest your time, your effort, your energy, and we appreciate that you bring it to Freight Nation. And this is a podcast by Truckstop. And this is a part two. So if you hear me say this is part two, please go back and listen to part one. So on with me today is my good friend and the senior vice president at OOIDA, Mr. Lewie Pugh. Lewie, thanks for joining me for part two of Know Your Truck, I guess we could say. So thank you so much for joining.
Lewie – 00:00:59:
Well, I appreciate you having me. I guess I didn’t bomb part one bad enough, so I made it onto part two. So, hey, we’re doing good.
Brent – 00:01:05:
We are. So, Freight Nation, look, if you are hearing this, we’re going to talk today all about OOIDA’s impact in the marketplace. How does he go to D.C.. And represent your rights? What do regulations look like? What does it mean to really understand how your truck operates in profitability? And Lou’s going to bring us all the way through that. But go back and listen to the first episode, because I want you to hear who Lewie is as a person, because the last couple of years, he and I have become better friends. We knew each other for a long time, but we’ve become better friends. And I’ve just really grown to completely respect and appreciate his point of view towards his sort of idea of helping this industry and helping owner operators, really enjoy their trucking operations. So go back and listen to part one. You’ll learn all about Lewie Pugh. Some of it may be a little eye opening. I can tell you that. So get ready.
Lewie – 00:01:52:
For all my old trucker friends, I didn’t tell. I still live by the code. What goes on the road, stays on the road.
Brent – 00:01:58:
Well, you got to live by the code, man. You got to live by the code. All right. So in the first episode, you talked about how you got to OOIDA. We talked a little bit about some of the things you do there, but we want to go a little bit further in depth. So talk a little bit about, you’ve been on the team doing your thing since 2017, full-time with OOIDA. And so you’re now, I’d call you an expert at what does it mean to advocate for trucking and to advocate for the owner-operator. So talk a little bit about OOIDA and like their sort of point of view and your point of view on why OOIDA is impactful and necessary for the industry.
Lewie – 00:02:35:
Yeah, of course, OOIDA was started in 1973 out of an E-
Brent – 00:02:39:
Right here on my shirt, right here on my shirt. Fighting for America’s truckers. I just want to make sure everybody, you can’t really see it, but I want to make sure you understand. I got my OOIDA t-shirt on. All right, let’s go. All right, so go ahead.
Lewie – 00:02:50:
Yeah. Well, with that being said, we were started in 1973, which was a good year because I was established in 1973 myself. So that’s a good year. But-
Brent – 00:02:59:
Wait, does that mean you were born in 73?
Lewie – 00:03:02:
Yeah, exactly. So with that being said, of course, at the time is when the airborne barges were going on. Fuel prices were skyrocketing. Fuel was either rationed or very high costs. And truckers were speaking up. And a few truckers got together and decided they’d go to Washington, D.C.. And they would tell the government their problems, get them fixed, and get right back on the road. Well, they did that. And they realized right away that it was going to take a little more effort, if not a lot more effort. And I jokingly say, but there is some truth in this statement. Here we are now going on 52 years later. And we’re still fighting some of those fights in D.C., because the government moves very slow.
Brent – 00:03:48:
Yes. Yes, it does. I have learned that, too.
Lewie – 00:03:51:
But with that being said, that’s how we were started. We were started just by a bunch of truckers, and a few of them would shut down some roads up on Interstate 80 and some other places, and a little bit of dust. But after, I think, about the first two years, we changed presidents three times. We ended up with Jim Johnson as our president. Jim realized the need and the necessity. He also realized we had to figure out other ways to, for profit and stuff like that so we can stay in business besides vision. Pretty soon he met Todd Spencer in 1976. Todd became a member and Todd started working part-time. And then Todd came in the office, I think in 1980 and really started building our advocacy as well as our magazine landline. So in the two of them together, Jim on the business front and Todd on the government front, and they built us to what we are now, which is a legitimate association. And what we’ve learned over the years, and I know it gets frustrating to truckers and it’s frustrating to me as a trucker. We’re truckers, we want action and we’re blue collar guys and hard workers. So it’s the slowness of government regs once is irritating. And two, we get people all the time, you need to shut down or do these kinds of things. Well, for one, as a trade organization, we can’t ask people to shut down. That’s against the law. So we can’t really do that as a non-for-profit trade, but you know, when our union said, but we, what we’ve learned is being a part of the thing. And again, I don’t mean being part in the negative way. If you’re going to play in Washington, D.C., like it or not, there’s ways you have to do things. And we’ve learned over the years that you have to play within those rules. And that’s being part of CVSA, the commercial vehicle safety measure, having meetings, being connections with FMCSA, talking to administrators, talking to the secretaries, having a office in Washington, D.C., with our wonderful lobbyists, up there on the Hill every day, talking to lawmakers. I go out and talk to lawmakers. And then the other thing that really sets us apart from all the other trucking associations, Todd and I were truckers. We run the association, but our board of directors, we have a board of 22 people. You’ve met our board. They’re all either actively trucking or we’re active truckers. You have to be an active trucker to get on our board. There’s our eyes and ears out there on the highway. When I was a board member, driving truck. If you see things are happening, they’re the ones that give us feedback. They help guide our policies in D.C.. Now, what I can’t stress enough is we are sometimes going to be on the other side of the fence with some of our members. OOIDA was on the other side of fence on some regulations with me when I was trucking and as a board member. Because we don’t look at things, what’s best for you or this individual or that individual. We try to put together with our board, because our board is very diverse in all different walks of the industry and all over the country. What works with our board and ourselves and everybody here together, conglomerate, we put our heads together. And sometimes we argue and push a little, but we try to come out with the best outcome. What’s the best for trucking in general? Because at the end of the day, no matter what you do, whether you’re a livestock hauler or a freight hauler or whatever, flatbed or whatever, we’re all in trucking. And the vast majority of these regulations hit us all one way or another. And so it’s very important that we’re not getting, sometimes, like I said, members get mad because we’re not getting right down there. And we got to look at it from a bigger view and what’s best for trucking all over. So I can’t stress that enough. I also can’t stress it enough that we can’t do it without you. We don’t have the money. We don’t have the resources, the power that any of the people that we push back against, like the American Trucking Association and others, we don’t have the same stuff. ATA has two offices in D.C., a huge regiment of people. They have lobbyists for each individual, a lot of each individual things. I got four guys down there who work their butts off. And we’re lean and mean. And, you know, once in a while they call me in to help. But we’re lean and mean. But, buddy, we make waves and we get things done. And they’re right there all the time. I can’t say enough about them as well and how hard they work. But where it really comes into play, and I’ve seen this myself, we go talk to lawmakers who want to hear from you. They need to hear from their constituents. And where’s a bill or rule or regulation out there? It’s so important that you pick up the phone. Because when we walk in an office and the staffer or the lawmaker is saying, hey, what’s this speed limiter thing, I keep hearing about. You know how much easier it makes our job and our conversation to close the deal, to get the lawmaker to sign on or co-sponsor something if he’s hearing from his constituents? Our lobbyists are very smart. They know the industry. I know you’ve met some of them as well. They get it. They understand it. But they will all tell you the same thing I’m about to tell you now. They have no behind the wheel time. They’ve never driven a truck in their life. They’re lobbyists. That’s what they went to school. That’s their education. So they know how to do things. What really makes a difference is when myself or somebody else comes in there with trucking experience and can say, hey, I’ve done this for 20 years. This is what’s going to happen or this is what’s happening. And when drivers, and I hear so many drivers come to me at truck shows or call in and say, well, I don’t like to call because I don’t know what to say to them or how to talk to them. That’s what you guys do and that’s what you guys are for. That’s not true. I’m just a trucker. I got a college degree in government. I got a college degree at all. I’m just a trucker. You, the expert of your industry, nobody can tell the lawmakers what is harming or helping your industry better than you. And there’s about four, maybe four people in Capitol Hill, and maybe I’m even being generous at that, that have any kind of trucking background or knowledge. Boss and Mike Collins both do. A couple members I’ve talked to work with trucks in college or stuff like that. But, you know, you’re the experts. It’s real easy. A lot of makes it real easy for you. We got a website fighting for truckers. You can find your lawmakers, phone numbers and emails, or you can message them right from an email. But just call and be nice. Be professional, but be direct. This is what happens. This is how this effect, speed limiters are going to make the highway totally unsafe because of blah, blah, blah, blah. I see this every day, blah, blah, blah, blah, whatever the issue is. Don’t be afraid. And it’s funny. If you build these relationships, with your lawmakers, and tell them what you’re wanting and then call back and follow up with them. Don’t be afraid. But sometimes we get members who end up getting a pretty good relationship because you’re going to be talking to staff realistically, but you’ll get a transportation staffer that if you call enough, they realize that you know what you’re talking about. They might start reaching out to you. And that does happen. We have members who they get calls from their lawmaker’s office saying, hey, have you heard about this? What’s your opinion of this? It works. And grassroots is what we are. We’re a grassroots organization founded by truckers, run by truckers. Our members are truckers. And grassroots is where we can really flex our muscles. And when phones start ringing about a certain thing, they’re ringing like crazy. Lawmakers pay attention.
Brent – 00:11:21:
Yeah. What a great way to kick this thing off. So Freight Nation and truckers out there, the saying in D.C., is in politics, you’re either at the table or you’re on the plate and you don’t want to be on the plate. You want to be at the table. And so Lewie’s saying, hey, make your phone calls to your local representatives, your state senators and talk to them. And you are going to be talking to a staffer who’s probably anywhere from 22 to 35. And they need to- You need to inform them so they can inform the representative. And every once in a while, if you go to D.C., you get to talk to representatives, you talk to people. So, Lewie, I’d like to transition that the sex part of this is like, I’ve gotten to do this. I’ve gotten to talk to representatives. I’ve gotten to talk to senators. I’ve had the honor of sitting before the Senate Transportation Committee and actually giving my testimony about the industry. So talk to the Freight Nation watchers about what is it like to be the person that’s like at the table, talking to these represents. Because you talked about the importance of this. But what is it like firsthand to do this?
Lewie – 00:12:26:
Well, I think I talked about part one a little bit, but to me, it’s moving, not necessarily because of who I’m talking to. It’s where and why and how. It’s pretty freaking amazing. If you think about it, that we live in a country so great that people without education or come from poor backgrounds are able to end up being in the state of Washington, D.C., trying to shape legislation and rules to help blue collar and fellow truckers. It’s pretty moving. But, you know, it’s very interesting. The thing I’ve learned from going in is lawmakers are just like all other people. They put their pants on the same way we do. A lot of them are really good, genuine people. A lot of them, I know we get mad at them and stuff, but a lot of them are there with really good intentions and really want to do the right things. It’s just like in everything, there’s a certain percentage that are there for their own reasons or to punch the clock or they’re just crazy. I don’t know it is. And there’s all walks of life. But make no mistake, lawmakers are real people, too. And they have real backgrounds. And a lot of them, Congressman Van Drew, who’s been a good friend of trucking, going to be releasing, probably by the time this is released, the Guaranteed Overtime Act for trucking, which would do away with the overtime exemption and the fair labor. He loves truckers. And he loves blue collar. And he gets it. He’s a dentist. He’s a smart guy, sharp guy. But he gets it. You know why? Because when he was going to school, he worked at a concrete block factory. Says the hardest work he ever did, stacking blocks and carrying cement and all that kind of stuff. Such a hard job. And he has respect for people who drive truck and who are blue collar laborers, people. Because he knows how hard it is and he understands it. And there’s lots of lawmakers down there like it. You just don’t. When you don’t get to talk to them, you just see them on TV or read what they send you. You don’t really get to know them like that. And I’ve been fortunate get to know a lot of them. And I’m here to tell you all the stuff you see on CNN or Fox or any of these other 24-hours news channels that we see of lawmakers. Don’t judge these people good or bad by what you see, what they say on TV. A lot of times they’re just hitting political talking points for whatever party that network is playing to.
Brent – 00:14:48:
Yeah, no doubt. I loved your point of view about bring your voice to Washington. Don’t worry about your formative education. What you need to bring is your experience and then bring your expertise. And I can tell you that every time I sit in front of some representative or anyone that’s been an elected official, they always say, hey, bring me up to speed on why this is important.
Lewie – 00:15:09:
Exactly. They usually want to know how it affects the taxpayers or their constituents or their area. And sometimes they want to know who’s opposed and why they would be opposed. Just to have a heads up on that. Those are the big things. But be yourself. I feel like for the good politicians in Washington, D.C.. And this is just Lewie Pugh’s opinion, but I think my lobbyist guys will agree with this. I think it’s a breath of fresh air when lawmakers and staff hear from professional people who understand. And truckers, you’re all professionals. When they hear real world stuff and people who are just themselves. Because there’s so much fake and so much phoniness and stuff like that in D.C.. And people are afraid to just be themselves for whatever reason. I think it’s a breath of fresh air to them when they can talk to people who aren’t afraid to just be themselves.
Brent – 00:16:04:
Yeah, no doubt. So, Lewie, and I agree with you 100% on that. So let me ask you this. So if a trucker wanted to go to D.C.. And they’re an OOIDA member, how does OOIDA help them go and represent themselves and the industry in D.C.? Because I know that you guys, if a member said, I want to go to D.C., and talk about this regulation, how would OOIDA assist them or maybe be their partner in helping them navigate that?
Lewie – 00:16:32:
Yeah. I mean. If you’re a member out there and you’re watching this and you want to go talk to your members, reach out. My guys are happy to try to set those appointments up for you, give you talking points. If they’re unable, a lot of times accompany you because it is very complicated down there if you don’t know where you’re going, especially your first time. I’ve been going now since 2017 on a regular basis and, I still get turned around once in a while. I mean, our PR guy, George, he’s been living down there his whole adult life. And, we’re- He gets me lost all the time down there.
Brent – 00:17:06:
Well, the reason I brought that up, Lewie, is that I want to encourage owner-operators and truck drivers to reach out to OOIDA and go to D.C.. But let OOIDA empower you because you’re going into unfamiliar territory. And so how do you do that? Well, you take a good partner. You take somebody that knows how to navigate it. If you go to a foreign country, it’s best to go to a foreign country and experience it with somebody who is from that country. So take OOIDA with you. Let them help you be comfortable in expressing your expertise and your experience in the market. And, man, I promise you, Freight Nation, I promise you, OOIDA members, you will have a good experience. You’re going to go, man, it’s really impressive to be able to be up here and go, actually, our government actually listens to us. And that’s what’s unique about the United States government is they do want to listen to you.
Lewie – 00:17:52:
Yeah, a lot of times you can follow the money on everything and comes out of D.C.. But what trumps the money over anything is grassroots and voice and phones. So that’s the biggest hurdle we have a lot of times. We’re fighting back against money. So that’s where truckers need to speak up. Let’s face the facts. The reason we don’t have a speed limit right now is because almost 16,000 truckers took the time to comment on that. And, you know, it’s still floating out there. I firmly believe FMCSA handled that very carefully with kid gloves and really didn’t want any part of it because of all that. And it would have been nice to have 50 or 100,000, and we shouldn’t have. We should have. But 16,000 is really good. And whether it’s a regulation from FMCSA or a law, I’m capital ill. Phone calls make a huge difference.
Brent – 00:18:47:
You know, I will great transition to the next part of the topics here. So I remember I got in this industry in 98 and I remember hearing, I don’t want the government spying on me. I don’t want the government controlling my business. And then I’m like, okay, well, why are truckers so bent a little bit against these regulations? And then I realized, well, regulations are like laws. When they’re passed, they’re mandatory. They’re not a good suggestion. And so fast forward into say 2015, when ELDs started their march into being mandated. So talk a little bit about regulations and a little bit about the FMCSA’s responsibility and that sort of thing. And look, I respect the FMCSA and I respect the people that I work with there. And I appreciate all that they do to help create safety on the roads. But let’s just talk a little bit about regulations and about your point of view, OOIDA’s point of view. And then just maybe just a general update on regulations.
Lewie – 00:19:45:
Heck, I’m one of them truckers too. I don’t do government or any of that stuff. And I was fortunate to get out of my truck right before the mandate passed. And I’m glad because I don’t know how I’d have dealt with it. But it is what it is. Well, with those people nowadays, we hardly get a complaint about it ever. I think people have accepted or gotten used to it. And a lot of new people come into our industry that’s never driven a truck without one too. So there’s all that. You know, truckers get irritated because I remind these people all the time, whether it’s FMCSA, CVSA, or safety people, or reporters, there’s no one in this world who cares more about highway safety than the American trucker. That’s their office. That’s where they spend the mass majority of their days. It’s their livelihood. And if something bad happens to them, whether it’s their fault or not, it can put them completely out of the industry and their career and everything. It can be earth shattering. But with that being said, probably the more accurate statement, I know it doesn’t get said by truckers much, myself included, we don’t mind regulations if they’re regulations that make sense. The problem is it seems like there’s not a regulation out there that doesn’t make sense that they all love. It’s like we trip over all these regulations and we miss the big ones that can make a big difference. Worrying about all these little stupid ones that don’t matter at all. Like the way the words should be on the side of your truck, whether it’s operated or and stuff like that. The color of your light cords and all these little things we get messed into. I put it like this. A few years ago in Ohio, I get inspected down in Chilcot, Ohio at the old scale. And I get pulled in there and they pull me around back to level one. And they did it in like 20 minutes or less. It was the fastest inspection I ever received. And when we got done, I said to the officer, he’s a real nice guy. I said, I appreciate this. I said, I’d like to get home. I was on my way home. I said, I appreciate this being so fast. I said, I’ve never had a level one this quick. Thank you. And he said, look, I looked at your truck. It’s neat and clean when I come in here. Your tires, your brakes, your lights, your steering, the important things that I know if those are good, you’re operating safe in your logbook. All that other crap. I ain’t gonna mess with it, cause it don’t mean nothing anyway. Now you find I was supposed to say that? But, hey, he’s right. And that’s the problem. We’ve got this book that’s thicker than the Bible that we’re supposed to follow all these regulations. They’re worse than God. At least God’s rules make sense. They’re pretty short and sweet. Pretty much treat people like you want to be treated. Be nice and you’re okay. But anyway, that’s the thing that irritates truckers is all this time wasted in that and studies and research. We’ve been studying research from parking for 20 years. Guess what? Every study shows it just continually gets worse because nobody is doing anything about it.
Brent – 00:22:39:
Right. Yeah. Well, hopefully there’s going to be more and more solutions to that problem. So let me ask you a question. In your mind, what regulations do you see that maybe just passed? Like you brought up ELDs that there was a lot of complaints before they got mandated. And then when they got mandated, there haven’t been a lot of complaints either as truck stop. And so I’d love to get your opinion on this. I have long said that ELDs in the long run are going to end up making any trucker, but especially the small trucker, more money. Because now they can prove their time that’s being wasted by detention or by I didn’t get loaded fast enough. So it put me into traffic and closing, so, the idea of actually being able to justify your time. So what’s your thoughts on the ELD regulation experience and how it is in the market today?
Lewie – 00:23:27:
Well, I think we saw a little bump in rates and stuff after it came in, going through the growing pains, and then they fell back down. I agree with you that we now have the tool to track time, which should. I just talked about this earlier on the Dave Nemo show. The two things we need with ELDs, and to get to what you’re saying, in my opinion, we need this whole overtime exemption taken out of the fair labor act Standards Act. Because, as long as carriers and shippers and receivers and all these people do not have to account for the driver’s time in any form or fashion, an ELD isn’t going to make it more profitable for them. But the good thing is, that’s always been the complaint in the past. That’s why the rule was passed in 1938 or wherever this exemption was put in, because we have no way to track these truckers. They can hang it out at the diner, sweet-talking Miss Millie or something. The waitress, instead of doing it working. Because, of course, the trucker’s always the bad guy, unfortunately, which is sad. But with that being said, you’re right. Now we do. And we hear the pushback of, well, this is going to change transportation and make the rates, and this is going to make everything cost more, and all this. Truckers have been eating it in their personal pocket and economy for 40 years or more. And maybe it’s not necessarily going to increase the movement of goods. It’s just going to move the cost. Because the cost has been there. It’s been on the backs of America’s truckers.
Brent – 00:25:01:
I have seen it.
Lewie – 00:25:01:
You know, given 20, 30 hours a week away from home and not paid on average. So yeah, maybe your goods are going to go up a little bit, but why shouldn’t they? Why shouldn’t that trucker get overtime? I don’t understand it. And there’s plenty of models. My dad was a trucker, as we talked about. He shot horses full-time and then drove truck in the winter. And then when he started getting a little older and his body broke down, late 80s, actually started driving truck full-time. And his first job, full-time job, and that’s part of the reason he stayed, because he’d been working on percentage of the mileage in the winter. That winter, he went to work for a company out of Columbus, Ohio, hauling goods and over-the-road job, either to Chicago or Baltimore mainly. And guess what? He got paid by the hour. He was paid by the hour. And he worked there and come the next spring, he’s like, you know, I’m getting old. My back hurts. I’m getting a little tired of fighting horses all the time. I think I’m just going to stay here. Because he made a good salary? And the company had no overtime, no overturn. Somebody had to try to get him to leave. And he worked there until, but that job completely went away. You know, for about 20 years he worked there. So the models are there. It’s able. It’s easy. Just the people who thrive on cheap labor and want more cheap labor, they keep coming up with all these crazy excuses, which they say out of one side of their mouth they love their drivers and respect their drivers and want to raise their drivers, but out of the other side of their mouth they don’t want to pay their drivers. So we need that, but we also need flexibility. We need more flexibility in hours of service, because unfortunately, as we know, we hear the tales every night, that we need more parking because drivers either have to shut down early to get a safe place to park, or they end up parking in an unsafe place, or they have to travel and be in violation of hours of service. So we need some more flexibility. Also, guys get tired. I’m a guy. I like to take my little afternoon siesta after I unload and reloaded, take my little siesta, get up later in the afternoon, and then finish my day. You know, I was safer that way. Why not? Or, what about the guy like, and again, I’m using myself. I like to go into New York City at three o’clock in the freaking morning. You don’t have any of that kind of flexibility now. So we need FMCSA and others to enforce the rules and not allow shippers, receivers, and carriers to take advantage of that flexibility, because that’s what happens. If you get more flexibility in hours of service, there’s more of an advantage for these type of people to take advantage of your time and say, hey, you can stop the clock now here. You can stop, or you can run that load farther. And they can do that by paying attention to the complaints of coercion and stuff like going to the NCCDB, the National Consumer Complaint Database website, which is a crazy name for a trucker complaint line. But it used to be the old trucker hotline. And we’ve argued, tried to get the name changed multiple times, but haven’t been successful. But that’s a place where you can go and you can file a complaint on coercion on a carrier, a broker, whatever’s happening. If you’re a driver, but unfortunately, we have members do it, and they don’t really get a lot of feedback. And then, of course, they get the, what’s the point? Because nobody listens anyway. So FMCSA needs to do that and put some teeth in that when that happens to drivers. And then again, we need to get this overtime, because again, if trucking companies have to pay their drivers overtime, then they’re probably not going to be so bad about coercing them to do things. And there’s plenty of studies out there. If we pay people, they’re safer.
Brent – 00:28:34:
Right. The thing I love about the ELDs is it allows you to prove your time. And so I think when you can show the measurement on time, then to me, the two big things, you talked about parking already. The other thing is the detention, where we can get detention paid for or reduced because the shipper is going to want to be much more proactive about reducing their detention because now they’re having to pay the trucker for detaining them. So to me, I think that solving those two big problems produces a lot safer industry because you’re not putting stress on the trucker to still meet the requirements of getting the load there among the time that it needs to get there. So to me, I think those are huge.
Lewie – 00:29:11:
And that’s a good point, the stress, because that’s what we hear now. ELDs are stressful because the only time drivers really get paid is when they’re driving. So they feel like what we hear constantly is they feel like they’re playing beat the clock because they only got a certain amount of time and they feel like they’re rushed. They don’t feel like they have the time to stop and eat correctly or do things. And I think we’re seeing that bigger picture in our industry. I mean, look how the truck stop model has changed. Truck stops are doing away with the sit down restaurants and the 24 hour restaurant because truckers aren’t using them because they don’t have the time to come in and eat a good breakfast or eat a good lunch or dinner, they grab a freaking sandwich from a building with a clown above the door or something and on down the road, which leads into other problems and all these other problem.
Brent – 00:29:58:
It’s a problem, yeah, sure.
Lewie – 00:30:00:
That’s a big reciprocal wheel thing and it’s terrible, but that’s the problem we see. And that’s why some of these other things like overtime and stuff need to be addressed to offset those problems.
Brent – 00:30:11:
Right. Hey, real quick, I want you to hit on this because I think we’d be remiss not to at least talk for a second about it. But I want you to talk about a little bit different angle because you and I caught up at a trade show in Chattanooga at the end of last year about this and about rate transparency within the marketplace. The regulation, 371.3. So if you want to know officially called 371.3, which is the technical term. But here’s what Lewie and I were talking about. There’s obviously the rate transparency thing, but it was more along the lines of the actual contract that the carriers required to sign. Could you talk just a little bit about your thoughts and concerns about the contracts that the carriers assigned? Because the rate transparency thing, I think, is one part of the argument. But the other part is the contract. And the reason I bring this up is that in the spot market, when you’re moving spot market freight, you have to secure a load in a minute or two minutes. You don’t have a lot of time to read a 10-page document. So you’ve got to agree to certain things. So could you talk a little bit about your concern and OOIDA’s concern when it comes to that aspect of rate transparency?
Lewie – 00:31:13:
Yeah. And I’d like to start out by saying OOIDA isn’t asking for new regulations or new rules because that’s what this gets painted at. We’re asking for enforcement of a rule that’s already on the book. And enforcement, what we’re asking for is just what you’re talking about. What we see happen is so many brokers out there make truckers waive their right to 371.3. And we don’t believe that any private business entity has the right or ability to ask another private business entity to waive their rights to any regulation in the big green Bible we were just talking about. I can’t hire a trucker and say, hey, you’re going to sign this paper and waive your rights to hours of service. And you’re just going to go out and do whatever I tell you to do. You can’t do that. And we feel that brokers should not be allowed to do that as well. I get a lot of members calling her. Well, this isn’t going to do me any good because I need to know. We should know this before. No, nobody has a right. You have to negotiate. And that’s it. And I remind them, you’re not a part of a transaction of anything until you pick up the load and deliver it. Then you’re part of the transaction. And that’s what the rule says. It’s all parties of the transaction. So, yes, that’s the first thing we were wanting and asking for. And the second thing, part of this was that this information, if a carrier asks for this information, that it can be sent to them electronically. We know everything. In today’s world of transportation, almost everything is done electronically. The broker-carrier agreements, all that stuff. Because the other thing we see, if they don’t put it in their way, they’re right. What happens is a guy picks up a load in Pennsylvania, takes it to Florida, and he’s from Ohio. The broker’s in California. And the broker’s like, yeah, if you want to see it, you come out to my office between 9 to 5, and I’ll show it to you. Well, he’s never going to be out there to see it. That’s making it impossible. So, again, there’s no reason that information can’t be shared electronically. Now, I know the broker world out there totally hates this and up in arms. And I understand why. And I respect that. But for good brokers, and I have a friend in Columbus, Ohio, who has a pretty good broker office. He’s got a podcast. And he and I are pretty good friends. And he says it don’t bother him at all. Because he says, I’m honest. And I’ll tell my guys that when I’m losing money, when I’m not making money, I don’t have nothing to hide. And I think that most good brokers out here, you got nothing to hide. And they’ll be fine. If you’re doing shady things, you’re not doing the right things, that’s probably the people that this is going to harm or hurt. And it should. If you’re not doing the right thing, then it should. But, you know, it’s a tool. It’s a rule. It’s a regulation. And folks should have to follow it. It’s that simple.
Brent – 00:34:08:
Yeah, fantastic. Well, thank you for your comment on that. I want to shift. We got about six minutes left and I want to talk about something that’s near and dear to your heart and near and dear to my heart, which is the profitability for the American trucker that’s out there. So I want you to talk about what you see. And you and I had a great conversation in America last year where you talked about, man, we just want truckers to know their profitability, to understand their operations, to really dig in. And sometimes that’s a challenge, for owner operators. So could you talk a little bit about why that’s important? And then what does OOIDA do to help the trucker understand why that’s important to their operation?
Lewie – 00:34:48:
Well, this goes back to what we were just talking about, really, the whole broker transparency thing. I can’t say enough how important it is to work with people. And you don’t get yourself into having to read a 10-page broker care agreement, 30 seconds left for a tendered load, if you’re working with customers and brokers and everything that you already know. But the first thing you need to do, if you’re thinking about buying a truck, or if you’ve already got a truck and you haven’t done this, you need to get on this right now. And that’s create a business plan and learn what your costs are. There’s fixed costs, which are truck payments, insurance payments, stuff like that. And then there’s your fluctuating costs, fuel, maintenance, tires, all that stuff changes. Keep a book of your costs. Understand your costs per mile, what it costs. And our foundation, which is our education and research arm here at OOIDA, they do a great job. Andrew King has a great course on this. I think there’s some online videos of it a little bit. But we also do a thing every year called Truck to Success. That’s the first part of Truck to Success. It goes right in sync, A through Z, on if you want to become an owner-operator all the way to becoming a motor carrier. But the first thing we talk about is create a business plan. Because here’s the thing. OOIDA, we have bumper stickers that say no to cheap freight. I’m a believer in it. But how do you know if it’s cheap freight if you don’t know what it costs? And no offense to you, but when I looked at load boards when I was trucking, and I would see what rates were. I think who in God’s world is ever going to haul that? But somebody does.
Brent – 00:36:23:
Well, it’s not profitable to somebody else, but not everybody.
Lewie – 00:36:26:
Or it’s just not profitable at all and they just don’t know.
Brent – 00:36:29:
Hey, Lewie, I got to tell you, this is important for Freight Nation and for OOIDA members. We did some research. We took 2,000 loads and we compared it against different owner-operators and their estimated cost. And it was really interesting, Lewie. One-third of the loads were profitable for that segment and none of them matched up. And they’re all in the same category. So understanding your operations is paramount to picking your freight.
Lewie – 00:36:53:
Andrew puts this cost of what the average cost is for the large motor carriers, which is way lower than the average owner-operator. But the one thing I always tell our students or class or whoever’s in our Truck to Success, you want to figure out how to get your number as close to their number as you can for the math because they got that number because it maximizes their profits. And they’re really the people you’re working against. And that’s where you need to got.
Brent – 00:37:18:
Freight Nation. Listen to what Lewie’s saying right here. You’re in competition with everybody else in the marketplace. You’re a provider to a customer in the marketplace. And that customer could be a broker. It could be a shipper. But you’re competing against a bunch of other people out there. That’s a very important point, Lewie.
Lewie – 00:37:35:
And this is a hard business. And I tell people all the time, this isn’t a huge profit business. Trucking is a penny saved business more than a penny made.
Brent – 00:37:45:
Yeah.
Lewie – 00:37:45:
Because you need to learn how to cut your costs. Do things more efficiently. You know, figure out little shortcuts, whether it’s having a fuel card that gives you a better discounts or better discounts on tires, or just trying to figure out how you can do it more efficiently than the guy beside, you have greater profits and greater returns. And that’s it. If you’re coming to Matt’s, we’re going to do this cost of operation. Andrew’s going to do it on the pro-talk stage. We also have Truck to Success. We do once a year. There’s dates aren’t set for this year, but I encourage anybody to know this. And the other thing I’m going to say, which more a lot of people, because of who we are and what we are, but we care about truckers. And that’s what I’m going to say, it’s not easy for some people to hear. Trucking is a business. And just because you’re a good truck driver and there’s lots of people are in a safe and professional doesn’t necessarily mean you’re a good business person. I started in this industry in the early 90s. I feel like about anybody could buy a truck and you got a little bit of common sense. You could dumb yourself around. And fortunately, that’s what I did for a long time was dumb around and figure out how to make it. But the late 90s, early 2000s, it became to where you had to put your business hat on and know these costs and be looking for these ways to be more successful. That’s how all businesses that are successful work. They figure out the niche. They figure out a better way. And you can’t rely 100% on the spot market. If you live by the spot market, you die by the spot market. You need customers. But again, you got to work with people and have a good relationship.
Brent – 00:39:21:
We don’t disagree with you in any way. So this is where people always go. How does Truckstop even say that? They’re a load board. Look, we want you to get the best paying freight that is. It’s usually around a relationship. It’s easy to direct with a really good trusted broker you’ve worked with before and or a shipper. But figure out what that model is that works best for your profit ability and anything you need to fill in, use the load board for those things. And so, yeah, that’s how the operation is going to work best. Hey, we got one minute left. Close out with this because I want you to talk about this. It’s real quick. You talked about understanding profitability and getting good buying advantages. OOIDA has many great opportunities for members there. Just talk real briefly about those and then let’s wrap it up.
Lewie – 00:39:58:
Yeah, we have some programs here out of need. Insurance, drug testing, permitting, licensing, some health, life and health stuff. But we also have plenty of discounts that help not only owner operators, but employee drivers. We have a great partnership with the folks at Truckstop. They got a pretty decent load board out there, I heard. You can get a discount there. We have a great fuel card program, one of the best. We don’t charge a monthly fee or anything. The only time there’s a little small swipe fee, that’s it. We have a tire discount program. We have some travel, some hotels. I encourage anybody, if you’re not a member or even if you are a member, reach out to our membership department. Update yourself. Look at our website on OOIDA, look at those discounts and stuff that we have. We’re always looking for more. I also encourage you as a member, if there’s something going on out there on the road that we need to hear about or know about, call and ask for our compliance department. If you have a contract, make sure you send it through them. I can’t say that enough. Read your contracts. Know what your contracts are by all means. And I guess to wrap this up, on behalf of myself and everyone here at OOIDA, we truly love truckers and we truly appreciate it. We appreciate you, the American trucker, out there for what you do. We know it’s a hard job. We know you don’t get a lot of appreciation and thanks. But we appreciate you here every day. And thanks for what you do. And I hope you all get home safe to your families and are very profitable and have a safe 2025.
Brent – 00:41:24:
Yes, sir. Well, hey, all right. See, Freight Nation, you just heard the heart and soul of OOIDA because you heard it from Lewie Pugh. And this is why we want to do this second part. This is Lewie Pugh 2. But it’s also how to use your advantages and resources in the marketplace to help you really, truly have a fundamental, great experience as a truck driver. So, Lewie, man, thank you so much for being on today. Appreciate your heart for the industry. Appreciate my friendship with you. It means the world.
Lewie – 00:41:52:
My mama might not like the fact that there’s a Lewie Pugh 2. I think Lewie Pugh 1 was enough for it. And I’ll leave it with that. Thank you, truckers.
Brent – 00:42:00:
All right, man. Well, all right, truckers, that’s a wrap for Freight Nation for this episode on Lewie Pugh 2. All right, don’t forget to work hard, to be kind, and to stay humble. We’ll catch you the next time. On behalf of the truck stop team, thanks for listening to this episode of Freight Nation. To find out more about the show, head to truckstop.com/podcast. If you enjoyed this episode, make sure you hit subscribe so you don’t miss any future episodes. Until then, keep on trucking and exploring the open roads with Freight Nation: A Trucking Podcast .
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