Intro – 00:00:01:
Welcome to Freight Nation: A Trucking Podcast, where we explore the fascinating world of trucking and freight management. We dive deep into the freight industry and uncover why the trucking industry is more crucial to our country now than ever before. Stay tuned to uncover the driving forces behind successful trucking businesses and hear from the hardworking truckers and leaders who keep the world moving. Let’s hit the road. Welcome back Freight Nation. We are so glad that you joined us today for another wonderful episode. We hope it’s wonderful. I hope you take a lot of wonderment out of it and get a lot of benefit from it because that’s our hope and our goal at Freight Nation every single time. So we appreciate you giving us your time, your effort, your energy. We know there’s a lot of places you can put it. And we just hope that we can give you a good return on your investment as you listen to another great episode of Freight Nation, a podcast by Truckstop today. Man, we got a really cool episode today. I know I say that a lot about a lot of things, but this is really neat because it kind of hits home to me a little bit. We’ve got an episode that talks a lot about what it is like when you take over a business from your father, who is kind of a big name in the marketplace or a well-known name in the marketplace, what’s that like? How do you approach it? And how does that look for your life moving forward? And so, as you know, at Freight Nation, we’re all about the story. We’re all about someone’s story and how they got to freight and what they found unique and interesting or what they see about the future of freight for themselves. And hopefully you can take something behind that. So joining us today is Mr. Ed Burns, the CEO of Burns Logistics. Ed, thank you so much for joining us on Freight Nation. I know we’re going to have a great time.
Ed – 00:01:35:
Brent, I know it too. I feel like I made the best time being here with you.
Brent – 00:01:39:
Well, it’s only the best time because we have great, wonderful leaders and interesting characters like yourself on, that bring a great story. I mean, that’s what makes it great. But thank you so much for the compliment. It’s just important that we’re always trying to bring value no matter what. I know that Burns Logistics and you feel that way. So, Freight Nation, I got to know Burns Logistics at the JOC Inland Conference back in, I don’t know, maybe 2017, 2016, somewhere in there, where I met, actually, I met Ed’s dad, Big Ed Burns. And so he introduces himself. He’s a lean, tall guy. And he’s like, my name is Big Ed Burns. I’m going, anybody who calls himself Big Ed has got to be cool. So I sat down, I talked with him, and I thought I understood his business. But it took me actually two times meeting Big Ed, Ed’s dad, to understand how Burns Logistics works, a very unique model. So I know you’re going to get some benefit, Freight Nation. I’m listening to the model and how they approach their benefit and their value in logistics. But as we always do at Freight Nation, it’s always about the story. So what makes Ed, the gentleman on the picture here and then the video here with me, what makes it interesting is he grew up in this market. And then he grew into the business. And then he has now taken over the business. So we’re going to talk a little bit about that. But what I’d like to do, Ed, I want you to talk about, you know, growing up, what was your pathway in this? Because yours is kind of unique as well, because you grew up all in it. So tell me about your pathway on Freight itself, on how you got into the logistics marketplace. Tell the watchers and listeners today a little bit about that pathway.
Ed – 00:03:00:
Yeah, absolutely, Brent. So as a kid, my dad was an LTL sales guy for a now defunct company called Carolina Freight. And so he spent his early freight career working in LTL sales. And he did a great job of bringing up us kids. I’m one of four. And he would bring us on sales calls with him. I don’t know if it was a ploy to get more freight or if he just enjoyed spending time with us.
Brent – 00:03:20:
My dad used to do it too, he’s in the steel business. I used to go on trips all the time with him. I thought it was the coolest thing because I got to eat like biscuits from Hardee’s, which was, Carl’s Jr. now. But I think my dad was using me the same way. It’s like, here’s my son. That’s super cool. So keep going.
Ed – 00:03:34:
Yeah. Well, my special treat was the McDonald’s hash brown. Like that was the real one when we stopped and picked up one of those in the morning. So there’s a picture of me as a little kid on the Mack production floor, standing in the wheel well of one of the trucks.
Brent – 00:03:48:
Oh, Mack Trucks. Oh, in Allentown.
Ed – 00:03:49:
Yeah, because that was his territory, the Lehigh Valley. So we would go to different manufacturing facilities. We’d bring pizza or donuts to people. We’d get to know people. As I got older, he eventually was with Jevic Transportation.
Brent – 00:04:00:
Oh, I know Jevic super well. Harry Muhlschlegel.
Ed – 00:04:03:
One of the smartest operators ever in the industry.
Brent – 00:04:06:
One of the legends in the industry. I mean, Harry taught me so much. It was the coolest thing to go. I got to go into his warehouse where he kept the very first truck that he drove. You know, Jevic grew from one truck into this massive fleet that sold out. But it was the coolest thing to see his old Mack that he drove the very first time. Super cool. Great guy. What a legend.
Ed – 00:04:24:
Yeah, absolutely. And then he did it again with New Century.
Brent – 00:04:27:
Oh, that’s right.
Ed – 00:04:28:
I mean, a fair number of people are able to sell their business, but very few people are able to do it twice and so successfully. So I admire him very much for that. So yeah, we’d go to truck driving competitions. My dad would make sure a driver showed up a couple times a year to our school so kids could crawl around in the cab and talk about the no zone. And so trucks were normal for us. It was part of life. Freight was life. We would wear the Jevic gear proudly and just always incorporated us into his sales calls. And it just became part of, he’s dropping these little lessons along the way. He would say things like, you know, always treat people well. He would say that the world is small, but the freight world is smaller. And he would just drop his little nuggets. So I grew up around it as I got older, I had no interest really in the business for myself professionally. Around 2008, he lost his job as a sales guy. And I was probably 15 at the time. My dad had four kids at home. And remember his consternation, right? Losing his job. Like, how am I going to provide for this family? How am I going to take care of them? And he started a business. He became an entrepreneur while the economy was…
Brent – 00:05:34:
Wow. Tough time. 2008 was a tough time to start the business.
Ed – 00:05:37:
He did it. And I always admired him… Once I realized what he was doing, I really have always admired and respected him for taking the risk. And he’s built a nice life for himself and for his family. And remember that when that first happened, I mean, it was like times were tough for the family. He was able to build it and take good care of us. So I didn’t necessarily want to get into freight. He would always say, freight gets in your blood. I was like, yeah, whatever that means.
Brent – 00:06:00:
Yeah, yeah. Oh man, whatever.
Ed – 00:06:02:
Whatever. But I didn’t know it was in my blood. It was already there. I was contaminated. So when I went to college, I wanted to be on TV. I wanted to be a broadcaster. Shifted gears a little bit, we’re doing 1099 work. My first year of college, I dropped out. I hated it. Didn’t enjoy it. My parents said, “hey, you’re going to finish school.” I was like, “no”, they were like, “oh yes, you are”. There was no arguing on that one. So I was sprinting through college as fast as I could working jobs. And I was working a lot of 1099 jobs.
Brent – 00:06:32:
1099 being like an independent contractor job.
Ed – 00:06:34:
Yeah, exactly. And one of them, I had done some work on a political campaign and the web development guy called and said, “hey, what are you doing for work next?” Because the campaign was wrapping up. I said, “I have no idea, but if you’re hiring, I would love it.” He said, “do you know how to build a website?” I said,” no, but I’ll learn.” He said, “okay, I’ll teach you.” So I was 19, started learning how to build websites, and do email marketing.
Brent – 00:06:58:
19, young man. Yeah, you’ve been an entrepreneur since, well, since probably birth almost with your dad.
Ed – 00:07:03:
Yeah. It was just like, okay, yeah, I got to pay my own taxes. Sure, that’s fine. I can control my own schedule and just need to make the deadline. It seemed like a pretty sweet deal. At that time, you start realizing, okay, what’s the difference between 1099 and W-2 and what’s it mean? And I started asking people if they liked their jobs. And so many people didn’t like their jobs, but so many entrepreneurs were juiced up people, right? They were high energy, high performers. A lot of them seem to do pretty well, have a nice living, and they were excited people. And I was like, I like that. That’s appealing. So as I was finishing college, I had learned a fair amount about marketing and websites. So I had a couple clients of my own, and I thought, you know, I’m 21. Why not just form a company and see what happens?
Brent – 00:07:55:
Do you hear me laughing, Ed, at 21, I did the same thing. Where I actually worked in a little bit of a concert with my dad, raised money, started a business. And so I was kind of done with school sort of thing. I wanted to get out and start getting after it. And because I saw a better sort of tangible response when I was in work mode. For me, college was great. But it was more like, man, I just, I feel it more when I’m in the work environment.
Ed – 00:08:19:
Yeah. So what was that, Brent? What’d you do?
Brent – 00:08:21:
Yeah, actually, I started a t-shirt screen printing company.
Ed – 00:08:23:
That’s fantastic.
Brent – 00:08:25:
Named Alphabet Ink, believe it or not, I-N-K, because it’s a plasticized ink that goes on a shirt. I should have done my homework. This is part of my coaching to young adults when I’m coaching them about business. I always go, do your homework. Because if I wouldn’t have done my homework, I would have never gotten that business because it was commoditized. When something gets commoditized, you’re either really big and you can make money, or you’re really specialized and you can make money. It took me almost four years to get to the specialized part and I started to make some money, but it was already too late. And then we closed the business after about five years. But you learn a lot, you grow a lot, you understand payroll and taxes and dealing with employees and making sure that you can get cash flow. And so it was a really good opportunity for me to understand business, which I’m sure when you started your business, you ran across the same thing at 21.
Ed – 00:09:11:
Oh my goodness. I did not have a clue, Brent. I was clueless as to how clueless I was. I had plenty of brashness, but no clue.
Brent – 00:09:19:
I can do it. I’ll figure it out. Yeah, I get it.
Ed – 00:09:21:
But, whatever.
Brent – 00:09:21:
Which is good.
Ed – 00:09:22:
Other people do it. I can do it. That schlub can do it. I can too.
Brent – 00:09:27:
At 57, I still take the same approach. Hey, they did it. I can do it.
Ed – 00:09:31:
Yes. Well, and that’s good. That’s healthy. That’s a beautiful thing. But man, it was hard. You talk about the marketing industry becoming very commoditized. So this was about 10 years ago, but I was like, hey, I got this niche down, what am I going to niche into? I’m like, transportation, trucking companies need websites. This industry is way behind with marketing.
Brent – 00:09:51:
Oh, way behind. Yeah.
Ed – 00:09:52:
Yeah. And I started tagging along with my dad to conferences that I would say to the trucking companies like, hey, how cool would it be if you had a website?
Brent – 00:10:01:
Right. That’s where you and I got to be. I believe that maybe the CSCMP show. Maybe it was.
Ed – 00:10:05:
I think it was an SMC3.
Brent – 00:10:06:
Oh, that’s right. That’s right. SMC3. That’s correct.
Ed – 00:10:09:
Yeah. Yeah. One of my favorite conferences.
Brent – 00:10:11:
Oh, they do a great job there. Sure.
Ed – 00:10:13:
Yeah. And you just meet such good people.
Brent – 00:10:15:
Sure. So you started this now. You got a cool name behind it. Don’t want you to pronounce it for me because I want to make sure I get it right. It has a cool name behind it.
Ed – 00:10:23:
Yeah. It was Melior Marketing.
Brent – 00:10:25:
Melior.
Ed – 00:10:25:
Well, it was the Latin word for better, right?
Brent – 00:10:28:
Oh, very nice.
Ed – 00:10:29:
Talk about being a dumb kid. I was like, yeah, well, it’s going to be better. So I’ll call it the Latin word for better. The domain names got some availability. Oh, search engine traffic. It looks like something that would be on a stock ticker. So let’s do it. But nobody can say it. Everybody’s like, what the hell is this?
Brent – 00:10:46:
Melior.
Ed – 00:10:46:
Yeah. They were like –
Brent – 00:10:48:
That’s how we in Alabama would say it, I think.
Ed – 00:10:50:
Which is much better than how some people have said it. You talk about marketing. The first thing is like, how difficult is it to say the name of your company? I mean, and that was like always a hurdle that I experienced. So at some point I wised up years later and I was like, I’ll just call it the Ed Burns Group and had niched down into some consulting instead of flipping out $800 websites. But it was a great experience. I learned so much. And one of the things that I would advise young people to do fresh out of college, whether they’re going down a career path or want to start a business, is I started reaching out to entrepreneurs or people who were successful or people who seem successful. And I would ask them to meet for an hour and just pick their brain. So dozens of hyper successful people gave me their time because I was 21 and just asking for help. I wasn’t trying to sell them anything. I wasn’t trying to get anything out of them. Just wanted to pick their brains and they loved it. And so it allowed me to build a very strong network at a young age because now these people become invested in you to a certain degree. If you truly want to learn from them, they appreciate it typically, and then they want to help you, right? So they start introducing you to their friends or hey, here’s a lead for you. Whatever it may be, I was able to build a very strong network, relatively speaking, at a young age. And I would strongly recommend that young people do something similar because people are so willing to help. And I think some people are waiting to be asked for help and just hoping that somebody young will say, hey, can you teach me what you’ve learned along the way? Because the information’s out there. People have done it, to your earlier point.
Brent – 00:12:24:
So that’s big, like Freight Nation, I hope you heard that great wise advice and counsel right there from Ed. It is so important to emulate success by going and talking to it. In other words, there are so many people that have been successful that love to invest in others because they want to give you the knowledge that maybe they didn’t get as they learned along the way. So I found the same thing across the board. It’s always good to use the resources that really are at your fingertips and just go ask successful people, hey, could you help me? Could you teach me how you did that? Because everybody loves to talk about their story, especially when they’ve been successful.
Ed – 00:12:57:
Yeah, absolutely.
Brent – 00:12:58:
All right, so keep going. You’re building this thing out. You’re building a great network. How are things going through that?
Ed – 00:13:04:
Early on, not great. Scraping by, just making it for a few years. And then I started to hit some success probably around late 2017, 18, 19. Started to get some attention from some different businesses and some offers to buy it. So I was entertaining three different offers to sell my business at the time. I don’t know when I was 26, 27. I was like, oh, this is so cool. So I went through that process, totally botched it, and made a deal with a company. A month goes by after we signed the deal. I get no check from them. A couple of clients call. They’re like, hey, we’re not being taken care of. What’s going on? I’m like, oh, you know what? We’ll figure it out. It’ll be okay. I call them. I say, hey, let’s get this together. Another month goes by. Still, no check. Nobody’s getting taken care of. Three months in, all the clients are just furious. And this was late 2019 now. So I didn’t realize that the entire world was about to collapse. So I called the company. I said, “hey, you know, you screwed this up. I’m going to take it back.” So I did. I took all the clients back, cleaned it all up, and just tried to fit. I just wanted to do right by these people who stuck with me when I was very young and they could have gone and done it with someone else. I was fortunate to have a pretty small, but very loyal client base. So there was a young guy who had worked with me in the past. I said, “hey man, if you can help me put this back together and get everybody taken care of, will you take over the company and run it? Because I’m getting burnt out on websites and social media marketing and email campaigns.” And he said, yes. So it took a couple of months. We cleaned it back up. Essentially, we rebuilt the business with all the knowledge from the very beginning, right? So we form a business process level, accounting, what tools to use, collecting money, things like that. We’d grown together really pretty nicely and worked together for about five years. And he had learned a lot technically. So he was able to rebuild how everything worked in a much better way. So we rebuilt the company pretty quickly. He took it over and started running it. And then I was like, okay, what do I do now? It’s early 2020. A client offered me a job. I was like, okay, maybe I’ll take it. Maybe I won’t. I had some consulting gigs that were paying pretty good for that time of life. And then the world collapsed very suddenly. And I was like, man, what am I going to do now? So I took the job with the former client. And a week in, I’m like, man, I cannot work for somebody like this. I just can’t do it.
Brent – 00:15:33:
What was driving that? I can’t work here.
Ed – 00:15:35:
The truth is there wasn’t enough to do.
Brent – 00:15:37:
Oh, okay. You just were bored and complacent.
Ed – 00:15:40:
Yeah. Do a couple of projects, get them done in a day. Here it is. Oh, I thought you were going to have that done by Friday. Are you kidding me? Who’s been working for you? So that did not last very long. And then a buddy said, “hey, why don’t you go work with your dad? He’s a great guy. You guys get along. Who doesn’t love Big Ed?” I’m like, “yeah, I mean, I love Big Ed, but I don’t know if I want to work with Big Ed.”
Brent – 00:16:00:
There’s always that little hurdle, man. You guys like to establish something on your own, which is commendable. I think every son and daughter too, but certainly sons to dads, you know, kind of want to, I want to prove myself and prove that you can do it. So, all right. So your friend gave you some good advice. So you can see that process.
Ed – 00:16:17:
So I called my dad. I said, “big Big Ed, can I get an interview?”
Brent – 00:16:21:
Your dad, I love it.
Ed – 00:16:22:
Yeah. I don’t know. I don’t know if he’s willing or open. I mean, my parents were always very loving, always wanted to take good care of us, but by no means was anything guaranteed as far as something like that.
Brent – 00:16:34:
Sure. Well, he’s wanting you to learn it too. That’s a good thing. Yeah.
Ed – 00:16:38:
Yeah. And after talking about it with him later on, he was like, I never expected any of my kids to even think about wanting to be in the business. I just didn’t think we’d want to. And I wasn’t sure that I wanted to at the time, but we talked it out and we have a really neat business model. My dad had built a great company with a fantastic carrier base with a phenomenal shipper base. So I said, “Dad, I think we can build on this. There’s a lot of opportunity within what you already have going on.” And going to conferences with him from time to time, because a lot of my clients were trucking companies or vendors or different freight type companies. So I was always talking to him at my family dinner or whatever, or we’d talk a couple of times a week about work. And he would ask me what’s going on in my business. I’d ask him what’s going on with his. So I was able to stay pretty tied in with what he was doing. We do have a funky business model.
Brent – 00:17:32:
I’d say unique.
Ed – 00:17:33:
Yeah.
Brent – 00:17:34:
All right. So hang on. I want to back up. So what was the interview like with your dad? You said, I think we can grow this thing together, but I want to understand the dynamic because Freight Nation, this is one of the wonderful things about freight transportation, logistics,trucking, even some of the greater supply chain, which is very family-oriented. There’s a lot of family businesses and where, you know, they’re one of the children who has some desire maybe to come into the business. And so that’s where I like the dynamic about you, the namesake, obviously you’re the namesake of your father going and talking to your father. And he’s like, okay, well, let’s talk about this. So talk about that. What was that like just discussing the idea with your dad?
Ed – 00:18:12:
Lit a couple of cigars. And my dad is, just one of the kindest people.
Brent – 00:18:17:
He is kind. Yeah. I’ve ever known.
Ed – 00:18:19:
And so I didn’t expect him to bust my chops about anything. So I asked him, I said, “why would this not work?” We just talked that out. And what does it look like if it does work? And a big thing that we talked out at that time was, how are we going to resolve conflict, which will be inevitable?
Brent – 00:18:36:
Between the two of you?
Ed – 00:18:37:
Between the two of us.
Brent – 00:18:38:
Wow. Yeah, that’s a great question to ask your dad. I wish I would have asked my dad that question when I was working with him. My dad’s like your dad, except my dad’s a little bigger than your dad. So it’s always like, I felt like he’s crushed me at any time. So it was always a challenge to argue
Ed – 00:18:53:
What point were you working with him, Brent?
Brent – 00:18:55:
I was about 22 years old when we started the T-shirt screen printing company. I was the president of the endeavor and my dad was one of the sort of pseudo board members. He helped me raise the money for it and we raised the money together. And Ed, it was one of those things where my dad would come in and help me at times, kind of run the business. So I was supposed to be operating and running the business, but my dad would come in and make decisions because he was used to being a business operator and he would make decisions after I had decided the decision we were going to make. So it was a lot of bumping heads and I had to say, dad, look, I get it. You’re my dad. I trust your wisdom on things, but if you’re going to make a change, please talk to me first because the employees answer to me. And so we had about 10 employees and it was tough. I mean, I was only 22, 23 years old, you know, so here’s my dad. My dad’s obviously 20, 25 years older than me and huge and well-known and that sort of thing. So tell me what it was like as that process with your dad.
Ed – 00:19:48:
Well, I think he’s so easygoing. So dynamic. When I talk to other people, similar situations, ours is a little different in that he’s so easygoing and he’s very trusting. So he’ll trust my judgment. He’ll leave decisions up to me. The friction point we had early on really was that he would let me make a decision and I wanted his input. I wanted to know, especially before, you know, now I’ve got skin in the game with it.
Brent – 00:20:13:
Right. The CEO. Yeah, sure.
Ed – 00:20:15:
Yeah. So, before that I was just an employee, right? So I’m making decisions that’s going to affect my parents financial future, right? So I said well here’s what I’m thinking: What do you want to do? We got, three options, you know, just as it is. And a lot of times you say, well, whatever you think is best.
Brent – 00:20:36:
He’s teaching you, man. He’s teaching you all along the way. He’s like, okay, you’re capable, make the decision.
Ed – 00:20:41:
And I’d be like, look, I can make the decision, but you got anything for me? You know?
Brent – 00:20:46:
What a great way to teach your kid that. Here’s what he was saying: hey, Ed, I think all three of them are pretty good, but I think you can make the best decision on it.
Ed – 00:20:54:
Yeah. So to me, that’s not a problem. Like that’s no big deal. What was your role with the company? Title was a relationship guy.
Brent – 00:21:01:
Oh, that’s right. I meant to say this at the beginning. You’re Ed, the relationship guy Burns. I love it, because I’m the Chief Relationship Officer. And this is super funny because I want you to tell Freight Nation this. Now that you’ve taken over as CEO and your dad has a different role, he has a different title. What is that title, Mr. Burns?
Ed – 00:21:16:
He is the Chief Relationship Officer for Burns Logistics.
Brent – 00:21:19:
I love it. We’re kindred spirits now. I mean, Big Ed.
Ed – 00:21:21:
Yes.
Brent – 00:21:22:
Well, that’s fantastic. So you came in to work and build the business because you guys are a big time relationship type business. I mean, that’s really the foundational basis of your value proposition to your customers is that you build the relationships between two parties and you’re the glue in the middle.
Ed – 00:21:39:
Yep. We’re just making connections.
Brent – 00:21:41:
Okay. Yeah.
Ed – 00:21:42:
So we’re making connections between two parties and sometimes those stakes can be pretty high, right? Which means trust has to be pretty high. So if the relationship’s not there on one side or the other, it’s not going to work. So yeah, I was doing a lot of what would be called sales and relationship building, but then I started seeing operational things in the business and I started putting my hands in things and saying, well, this could be better. The books could be better. We need a process here. It’s cleaning things up. It started getting my hands in all sorts of things I probably shouldn’t have.
Brent – 00:22:14:
Well, any natural entrepreneur or CEO always digs into the details to say, I think we could be a little better here. Not surprised that you did that.
Ed – 00:22:23:
Yeah. How can we make it better? How can we move a little faster, right? Because our business model is very old school. We don’t operate a ton of technologies. Nothing in our business is automated, right? So you have to be operating efficiently or things are going to move really slowly. And that’s what I was noticing. Things were moving too slowly. And if you’re moving at a rate where it’s so slow that you start losing opportunities because of it, that’s a problem. So that’s what we were trying to fix. Not that it was like a total mess or anything, but there was room for improvement.
Brent – 00:22:54:
So you held that title for, how long were you in that role?
Ed – 00:22:57:
Oh, geez. I probably a year and a half.
Brent – 00:23:00:
Okay. Not long then.
Ed – 00:23:01:
Probably a year and a half. And then my parents were like, okay, you’re doing all these things. We’ll just make you the president of the company.
Brent – 00:23:06:
All right. So now how old are you at this point? This is what, three years ago?
Ed – 00:23:09:
Yeah. That was probably two years ago.
Brent – 00:23:11:
Oh, two years ago. Okay. So-
Ed – 00:23:13:
I was 28 at the time. Yeah.
Brent – 00:23:14:
I love it. Young guy. That’s great.
Ed – 00:23:17:
That’s right.
Brent – 00:23:18:
So they said It’s time for you to take more responsibility.
Ed – 00:23:23:
Yeah, well, I was kind of just doing it.
Brent – 00:23:24:
So what was your dad operating at the time, the guy that started the business?
Ed – 00:23:27:
So he is one of the best natural sales guys. Like he is an old school freight sales guy in the sense that he’s a phenomenal relationship builder. He knows trucking so well. He knows LTL. He knows truckload. He knows how people operate. Very early in his career, he worked on the dock. So he knows what that world’s like. You know, he’s been up close to it for over 30 years and he knows the business so well and he has such a fantastic network. He loves people and people love him. So that’s what he’s good at. He likes going out, meeting with people, going on site visits, seeing carrier facilities. He likes going to meet the shipper. He loves to golf. And do it with people that he knows. So, you know, when I was a kid, I remember my mom saying like, “‘hey, you don’t work, you’re golfing.” And my dad was like, “‘It is work.'” That’s working. Yeah, so he was doing sales. And so we started to realize, like, the more I can free up his time to just let him work in his genius zone. The more successful we’re going to be, right? Especially like in the last, down cycle. I mean, a lot of people are having a tough time. It’s a tough market. It’s hard to find opportunities. And we’ve been doing all right. I’d say, you know, better than average because he’s doing what he’s great at. And he’s free to do what he’s great at. And he doesn’t have to worry about anything else. And the reality Brent is, you know, people in their 60s, a lot of the people he has these relationships with, they’re going to start retiring out. And the younger people who are taking over those roles are sold to very differently and want to be sold to very differently. So the dynamics are totally different.
Brent – 00:25:05:
When you said you started getting more involved into the operations of the business, are you naturally operationally curious? Do you find yourself to dig in to sort of like the underlayer of what’s functionally operating the business and finding better ways to do things? So is that kind of your bent?
Ed – 00:25:22:
So I really love the EOS model that’s talked about in a book called Traction by Gino Wickman.
Brent – 00:25:27:
EOS. All right. What is EOS?
Ed – 00:25:29:
It’s the Entrepreneurial Operating System.
Brent – 00:25:31:
Okay. There you go Freight Nation pay attention. You’re about to learn something here. Let’s go. Talk to us about it.
Ed – 00:25:37:
So Traction is a very simple 200 page book that goes through how to set up your business for success. It’s a book that I think every entrepreneur or a business operator needs to read. It talks about organization charts. It talks about process. It talks about how to run a good meeting. And one of the most valuable tools in it, if you’re someone who doesn’t want to read a book and you’re just going to ask Google Gemini for a synopsis of it, download their VTO, which is their vision traction organizer, which is a one-page business plan, right? So Brent, I don’t think I’m a hardcore operator. I wouldn’t want to run a 200 truck fleet in the operations role. But one of the things that the book outlines and the EOS system talks about is the visionary integrator combination. So the visionary is the person with the wild ideas. The integrator is the one who makes them become a reality.
Brent – 00:26:27:
Wow, that’s good, there you go. I love that, yeah. Visionary integrator, what was the last word?
Ed – 00:26:32:
The one-page business plan?
Brent – 00:26:33:
Yeah.
Ed – 00:26:34:
That’s the Vision Traction Organizer, VTO.
Brent – 00:26:37:
Okay, Vision Traction Organizer. Okay. So you got people that are visionary, people that are integrators.
Ed – 00:26:41:
Yes.
Brent – 00:26:41:
Okay, that’s cool. Yeah.
Ed – 00:26:42:
And so you’ll find this a lot. A lot of times you’ll meet a wild card. You talk to them for five minutes and you’re like, wow, they run this big, successful company. What a nut job. And a lot of them are kind of crazy, which is what you need. You need to be able to see the world differently from other people in order to innovate. So I think I’m a little more bent. I have a lot of crazy ideas. But, this has been a phenomenal experience because I’ve been able to cut my teeth more on the operational side of things in a different business than I had before. So I think it’s a great learning experience.
Brent – 00:27:14:
So you took over as the CEO in April of 2023.
Ed – 00:27:19:
Yeah.
Brent – 00:27:19:
You grew up in it. You worked on an outside business. You have the entrepreneurial mindset. And then you went to work for somebody else. A good friend said, “why aren’t you working with your dad?” You stepped into that role. You actually had to prove yourself to your dad. He made you interview for the job, which is always commendable. You stepped into it. You started creating efficiency. And then April 2023, you took over the whole thing. All right. So how does life look different? You’re 30 years old. Is that correct?
Ed – 00:27:46:
Yes, sir.
Brent – 00:27:47:
How does life look different at 30? Now, look, I claim that at 30, you’ve transitioned to fully become an adult. Somebody argued with me on that just recently. I won’t say who, but somebody that I work with, they said it was 40. I went, well, I think you’re starting at 30 to really think and operate. And people expect you to be an adult. Now, not everybody is. I get that. But 30, you took over not just a business. But your family’s business. So talk a little bit about that transition. And then I want to talk a little bit about it. I do want the Freight Nation watchers and listeners to hear your model because it’s very unique. So I want to talk a few minutes about it. What is it like to take over a business? And then what is it like to take over the family business where there’s expectations across, the board to really protect it and make success with it?
Ed – 00:28:40:
Certainly. Yeah. Jim Rohn says the prime earning years are between 40 and 60, which I agree with. And I think by 30, you should start to have it together a little bit.
Brent – 00:28:49:
On your way.
Ed – 00:28:50:
Yeah. There’s so much to learn. And especially in our economy today, we have so much access to information. By 30, you should have some things figured out. So candidly, my dad has a big reputation. He’s got a big personality. His name is Big Ed, right? So. People look at me and they’re like, oh, you must be Little Ed. It’s like, yeah.
Brent – 00:29:12:
I’m going to ask you. My brother is Randy Jr. And so he always hated being called little Randy. Oh my gosh. If you want to make him mad and get into his karate kicks. Because he’s a black belt, call him little Randy. So go ahead down the line with that.
Ed – 00:29:28:
Well, Brent, when I’m feeling real saucy and somebody says that to me, I say, yeah, does your company provide dental insurance? Because you’re going to get your teeth kicked in.
Brent – 00:29:34:
You’re starting to move forward with it.
Ed – 00:29:36:
So I think there is a certain reality of that I’ve seen, not just with myself, that if somebody has a father or a mother who’s an established figure in an industry and everybody knows them, how do you respectfully step out of the shadow while working and honoring with that strong reputation and building off of it and do so in a healthy way. I think I’m still in some ways figuring it out, but we have different personalities. We play off of each other well. We have good rapport. Like we can tease each other a little bit. That’s great. Which is fantastic. Yeah. I mean, my dad’s like my best friend. So, I mean, that makes everything much, much easier.
Brent – 00:30:14:
Yeah, you know it does.
Ed – 00:30:16:
Yeah, and talk to some multi-generational businesses, especially in our industry, where that next generation and the previous one, it’s kind of adversarial. There’s a lot of angst in it.
Brent – 00:30:25:
Can be. To me, Ed, it makes me think more higher and more kinder about your dad? Because it’s usually the dad that creates most of the angst in the situation, creating expectations or not releasing control onto something. So that speaks very highly of your father.
Ed – 00:30:43:
Well, yes, it absolutely does. I mean, one of the things he does all the time is he tells me that he’s proud of me. And every book I’ve ever read about father-son relationships is that a son is starving to hear their father say that he’s proud. And he does it all the time. I’m so fortunate, so blessed in that respect that he’s aware enough to be able to articulate it. That’s fantastic. And I see so many other relationships where the dad does love the kid, but he can’t just say it, right? And that would fix so many problems, really.
Brent – 00:31:17:
Ed, my dad died almost five years ago and I still hear his voice telling me how proud he is of me. I still hear it. And I would propose that a lot of your confidence is because your father supports you. He’s proud of you and he encourages you. Same thing with me. It’s like, I don’t feel like there’s anything I can’t do. And I know there’s a lot. I know I have a lot of limitations, but I don’t think there’s anything I can do. Because my dad always said, son, you can go do that. Others have done it. You said it in the beginning. Somebody else has done it. You can do it. Go find your pathway to success. So what a great thing. So, Freight Nation, if you didn’t have somebody encouraging you, be encouraging to somebody else. Because you’ll find that same fuel comes back to you if you’re encouraging to somebody else. Even though maybe that person that you needed to encourage you is not encouraging you, be encouraging to somebody else. Because, man, that pays backwards towards yourself. All right. So keep going, Ed, on your transition as your dad. Your dad’s really supporting you and getting you moving forward. So what’s been that year of running the business like? What’s been the highlights and what’s one of the lowlights?
Ed – 00:32:17:
Well, yeah. I would say the highlight is we’re seeing some success. We’re getting some stuff cleaned up. There’s a lot of opportunity. I’m very optimistic about the marketplace. And I’m having fun watching my dad have fun. That’s good to see. And when you’re looking at a P&L and you’re sweating sometimes and you’re thinking about cashflow sorts of issues. And it went from being not really your business to now it’s your business and you’re responsible for it. I mean, that can keep you up at night sometimes, but we’re very fortunate. I mean, we’re in good shape and the stresses are certainly there. You know, when’s the market going to turn? How’s that impacting people? I think a big downer is if a fleet of ours is struggling. About a year ago, we had a fleet that we worked with, an 80 something year-old company go out of business. Oh, wow. That’s what-
Brent – 00:33:02:
Yeah, that stinks. Because you blame yourself a little bit because you’re part of the process too. I mean, anybody that really cares about their customers when they struggle or fail, you take some responsibility in that. So you said the low light was the weight of responsibility. In other words, not in a tremendous negative sense, but you feel the weight of it. Each and every day, if you’re not showing up, you know the weight of that. So, I talked about that with all the people about the weight of leadership.
Ed – 00:33:32:
Yeah.
Brent – 00:33:33:
Weight being like weight on your shoulders, because you got to show up every day for every person that you work with and for.
Ed – 00:33:39:
Yeah. Ultimately, it’s healthy. I just want to say, Brent, with fleets that are struggling, they need to be willing to speak up and ask for help.
Brent – 00:33:48:
Yeah, no doubt.
Ed – 00:33:50:
Because we learned about that way too late. And that was the killer. It was like if you had told us two or three months before, we probably could have helped transition you to a sale with somebody else who could have absorbed you and kept jobs for all those drivers and that sort of thing. So I think in our industry, there is a reticence to ask for help. It’s a very independent, strong-willed industry. But man, it’s too hard to not ask for help.
Brent – 00:34:15:
Yeah, I’m with you, man. Always ask for help. That’s the best thing you can do, I need some help. All right, so we’ve got a few minutes left. I want you to talk a little bit about your business model because it’s different than the standard broker model or this carrier model or just the intermediary model. You have a little different model for your business. Talk a little bit about that and then we’ll wrap it up.
Ed – 00:34:32:
Certainly. Yeah, so we connect our shippers and carriers together directly. A lot of people call it a sales agency model. We have asset fleets we work with typically between 50 to 200 trucks. And they’re niche-y, whether it’s in the regions they run or the equipment they operate. And the big shippers out there, a lot of enterprise shippers want to source capacity from these small fleets. And a lot of them have the mindset of, if I work with a 100 truck fleet, I’m going to matter to them enormously. If I’m cracking their top five to 10 customer list, then I matter and I’m going to get high levels of service and the relationship can last a long time.
Brent – 00:35:10:
Yeah, that matters a lot to shippers.
Ed – 00:35:12:
Absolutely. And I mean, some people don’t care about it and some people do to varying degrees, but the ones that care about it will engage us to help them source capacity. And the fleets we sign on with typically do not have a sales team or have a small sales team.
Brent – 00:35:25:
Oh, wow. Okay.
Ed – 00:35:26:
Yeah. So we do it for them.
Brent – 00:35:28:
That’s a great model. You’ve found success in an unconventional way by being the sales agent model. So for the actual carriers after the shipper base. And then you help give that shipper certainty under what the performance might be with that carrier. Because you’re an independent business from that. So you’re representing them saying, this is what you can expect over here. But I’m the third party in the middle and I can show you how that works.
Ed – 00:35:53:
Sure. And really we’re sourcing capacity for repeat contract business, right? We’re not playing in the spot market. That’s just not where we are. It’s all a repeat contract.
Brent – 00:36:02:
But it’s a great model because it’s needed. Because most shippers really, they don’t have transportation departments. They don’t really know how to source a carrier. A lot of small carriers don’t have sales departments to be able to go and market their businesses out there. They just figure they’re going to get their business organically. And sometimes that business can be good for them. And sometimes it cannot be good for them. And so your job is to help that carrier find the best shipper for them to match up with and do business with. Because when you can do that, both parties benefit. Do I get that, am I accurate on that?
Ed – 00:36:32:
That was beautiful. Would you do a commercial for us?
Brent – 00:36:35:
Hey, I would be happy to support both Ed Burns’ anytime, man.
Ed – 00:36:39:
I love it, Brent.
Brent – 00:36:39:
Well, it’s such a great model, man. Thank you so much for telling your story today to the Freight Nation watchers and listeners. It’s really great. Freight Nation, I hope you took a little bit away on what’s a scenario like when somebody actually has a great relationship with their parents and with their dad who’s leading a business? And what’s it like trying to find your way on your own and then realizing, maybe, just maybe, working with my dad or working with my parents or working with my family would be a really great thing. And so Ed’s story is full of great advice on that. He gave some great advice on relationships. He gave some great resources on encouragement, on making sure you’re encouraging to people. And he learned all that from growing up, being around his dad and doing things, being around a parent and benefiting from that. So whether it’s your actual parents or whether it’s somebody else for a nation, find somebody that can really help you grow in your career and grow in your trajectory. But they do it from a standpoint of support and foundational care for the other person. So what a great story, Ed. Thank you so much for telling your story to the Freight Nation watchers and listeners.
Ed – 00:37:42:
Thank you so much for having me. It’s always good talking with you.
Brent – 00:37:45:
Wow, man. Fantastic. So Freight Nation, that’s cool. We’re going to wrap it up right here. Hope you got a great bunch of pro tips out of this. Ed had a bunch of them for you. And he’s taking Burns Logistics to the next level. And it’s going to be great to see what he does over the next four or five years with the business. And I know he’ll do well because he was taught really well by somebody who really cares for the customer and the business. And so Freight Nation, thanks a lot for watching and listening today. We appreciate you giving us your time. And as we always like to say, don’t forget to work hard, to be kind and to stay humble. All right, Freight Nation, we’ll catch you the next time. On behalf of the Truckstop team, thanks for listening to this episode of Freight Nation. To find out more about the show, head to truckstop.com/podcast. If you enjoyed this episode, make sure you hit subscribe so you don’t miss any future episodes. Until then, keep on trucking and exploring the open roads with Freight Nation: A Trucking Podcast.
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